Porn researcher Clarissa Smith about his harm and benefits
Last week at the Moscow Institute "Strelka" Lecture was given by Clarissa Smith, a professor at the University of Sunderland and co-founder of Porn Studies, which studies pornography, sexuality and how sex is represented in modern culture. We talked with Clarissa about her work, about how different ideas about sexuality in different countries, and about the relationship between pornography and violence in real life.
WHAT DOES UNDERSTANDING PORNO FROM A RESEARCH POINT OF VIEW? HOW IS TRADITIONAL METHODOLOGY COMBINED WITH RESEARCH OF SUCH THEME, WHICH MULTIPLE APPEARS NON-SERIOUS?
According to opponents of porn, it is one of our most serious problems - but at the same time we should not study it. Not that outside the scientific community there can be an interesting dialogue about porn. But it is very important that scientists take porn seriously, think what it is and how it is embedded in our ideas about sexuality and the media sphere.
Pornography has been around for a long time; it is connected with more "serious" areas: art, the media. I approach it like any other kind of film or literature, any other form of media. We need to look at porn through the prism of what it can tell about our culture in this particular period of time, about sexuality, about relationships. For this there are a number of methods that are used in film studies, art history, literary criticism, as well as political economy and history - when we study how this business and legislation looks and functions.
TALKING ABOUT LEGISLATION: I KNOW THAT THE UK HAS NOT SO HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED THE LAW REGULATING THE PORN AND THE FORBIDDING HARDCORARY SEXUAL ACTIONS IN BRITISH. PART OF YOUR WORK DEDICATED TO CENSORSHIP AND REGULATION PORN. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?
There are a number of censoring methods in the UK, and in recent years there have been more and more of them. There is an obscene publication law that has been in force for more than 150 years, which was aimed at those involved in the distribution and publication of porn. This resulted in a number of prohibitions - for example, it was impossible to publish images of penetration in journals.
Recently, laws on the storage of pornography are being introduced. They are quite ambiguous: it is absolutely legal to engage in some sexual practices, but it is illegal to keep their images. Censorship makes people afraid to store or publish something, instead of bringing the perpetrators to justice. In addition, these laws are often heteronormative and do not take into account the needs and desires of women. Britain considers itself very tolerant, but we live in a very intolerant time.
WHAT ABOUT THE LAWS, REGULATING THE PRODUCTION OF DEFINED PORNOGRAPHY TYPES, FOR EXAMPLE, HARDCORN PORNOGRAPHY?
With this in Britain it became much more difficult. I am not against a certain legislative regulation. We have a package of important laws relating to safety at work and the rights of workers. But these laws do not apply to filming porn - or, at least, they are not applied to help actors. Similar processes can be seen, for example, in sex work. Many people think that they are protecting women who work in the sex industry. But the law actually complicates their lives: the police are less likely to protect them and they are less protected from violence.
ONE OF THE BASIC DANGERS OF OPPONENTS IS PORNOUSLY CONCLUDED THAT WHEN WE SEE VIOLENCE, WE WILL REPRODUCE IT IN REALITY. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT?
I know that these fears exist, and I know that they are due to the desire to improve the situation. The problem is that, I think, we do not understand what we mean when we talk about the image of cruelty. We consider whipping or BDSM videos to be cruel, but in these situations people don’t want to hurt each other, they seek pleasure in sensations that are not necessarily directly related to penetration. Certain actions can cause concern to people when they first meet them, without analyzing their meanings, the meanings that they put into them, the context that is put into them. I think we need to be very careful with statements like "All porn is violence against women." This is very ambiguous: for some people, when a partner pulls a partner by the hair - this is a manifestation of cruelty. For many others, these actions in relationships built on love are not cruel and are not intended to be violent. I think there are many reasons to talk about violence in pornography, but the question of whether pornography is violence in itself is not one of them.
IS IT CORRECT IF I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU HAVE TO SEE THAT IN SOCIETY THERE ARE A DEMAND FOR DEFINED THINGS THAT EXPOSE PEOPLE? AND IF THE SOCIETY CHANGES, THE IMAGES THAT WE SEE IN PORN, ALSO CHANGES?
Naturally, people watch porn in search of ideas. But they do not just copy what they see in pornography. This is a more complex process: they check themselves, learn what excites them, and what they want to bring to their sex life.
At the core of this controversy is the idea that porn encourages violence against women. Rape exists, and it is a terrible crime. They occur in countries where porn is prohibited, and where it is in the public domain. We need to recognize that in countries where porn is publicly available, more liberal ideas prevail in society: they take the concept of consent more seriously, believe that rape should be severely punished according to the law, women’s attention is more carefully heard about violence ( read here, here and here. - Ed.).
Calling porn the cause of rape is easy, but I think this problem is related to other issues: religion, ideas about the place of women in society and the fact that violence is used as a means of controlling women - especially in societies where the value of a woman is largely determined by her chastity . These are complex problems that we still have to really understand.
WHAT YOU ARE DOING, IT CAN BE DETERMINED AS A CRITICAL STUDY PORN. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TRADITIONAL RESEARCH OF PORN AND YOUR APPROACH?
Instead of arguing whether porn should exist in principle, I recognize that it exists, that it is a complex phenomenon, which has its own history, its own language. There are different types of porn, different ways of understanding it, related financial issues: porn does not just bring a lot of money, there are different markets and different producers. Many of these producers carry political ideas (especially in feminist porn and queer pornography): they want to change the pictorial language of the genre. Porn, shot by women, broadcasts feminist ideas about female sexuality and contrasts them with a patriarchal view of women.
I think a more open, progressive and radical study of porn is also studying how porn interacts with technology, how it relates to people's changing perceptions about themselves and their sexuality. It helps us see that porn is important to people and really affects them, rather than dismissing it, saying that it is "just sex." Because, you know, sex is never "just sex."
HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO LEARN PORN?
I wanted to get a master's degree and do gender studies. During my studies I had several lectures on pornography from a radical feminist point of view, where it was said that women are not at all interested in porn. At the same time, I saw a real boom of frank magazines, erotic books and products aimed at women. This paradox and made me start my work. My master's thesis was devoted to a pornographic magazine: I studied how he addressed women in matters of sex. My research has resulted in a doctoral thesis. I never thought that my career would be related to pornography, but in the end I came to this.
WHAT DO YOU EXPLORE NOW? ON THE LECTURE, YOU HAVE TOLD ABOUT THE RESULTS OF A SCIENTIFIC SURVEY MORE THAN 5000 PEOPLE WHO LOOK DOWN PORN.
There are many topics that I plan to work on in the future. But in the scientific community you agree to something, and then you realize that you do not have enough time. Now I am working on a book about sexualization, about anxieties related to the fact that the media are increasingly concentrating on sex issues, on the ways in which they sexualize young women. We also have a database - the results of a survey of more than 5,500 people. This is an incredibly rich resource, and so far we have just started working with it. We wrote articles about young people, LGBT audiences, about a more general understanding of what people look for in porn, as it is embedded in their daily lives.
I also participate in a large-scale project about why people like Game of Thrones. I am very glad to him, although he probably leads me a little away from pornography and media in general.
DO YOU PLAN TO LEARN PEOPLE WHO DON'T LOOK PORN?
I think this is a very interesting group, but it will be difficult for me to contact them and engage in dialogue with them. There is a rather caricature idea of me as a scientist: I am considered to be in favor of porn, and because of this, it is more difficult for people to believe that I will objectively evaluate their answers. And for such a study it is very important to be trusted. This is very interesting, but I’m not sure that I’m the best person to do this research - although I’d be glad.
YOUR ONE FOR THE GIRLS BOOK - THE WORK YOU BEGIN WITH - DEDICATED TO RESEARCH PORN FOR WOMEN AND THE EROTIC JOURNAL FOR WOMEN. DO YOU SEE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PORN FOR MEN AND WOMEN? WHAT IS IT?
One of the topics I’m exploring in this book is how this magazine addressed women. The editorial staff posted softcore images and sexual content alongside the usual materials for women's magazines. They created a safe space on the pages of the magazine. The editorial staff of For Women tried to say to women: yes, we know that in everyday life it may be difficult for you to talk about sex, but we are just like you, and we like to talk about it.
One of the main differences between porn for women is that accents are put in magazines for heterosexual women that will not be in heterosexual porn for men. Attention focuses not on the size of a member of men, but on their actions. Men want to be looked at. This technique can be found in the Take That or One Direction clips: they kind of invite women to look at their bodies.
Porn for women and for men is similar and at the same time different. For example, female pornography is considered softer than male. But there is hardcore porn for women. British director Anna Span takes porn from a woman's point of view. When I asked women about what they like in female porn, they said that in her films men smile, there are a lot of laughter, exciting games, the characters look into each other’s eyes. The women also liked the fact that the film features heroes they can meet on the streets. But at the same time in her films depicted and hard sexual practices.
How do you feel about feminist porn? WHY, AT YOUR VIEW, PORNO FOR WOMEN IS DISTRIBUTED MUCH LESS THAN A MAINSTREAM PORN?
I think there are many important and interesting processes going on in feminist porn. I think the producers of feminist porn are trying to add critical discourses concerning the notion of consent, games and pleasure, and they make interesting films. This market is indeed smaller than the mainstream porn market, but similar processes occur in all other media. Whether the situation will change, I do not know. The problem is that when the feminist idea penetrates the mainstream, it becomes part of the mainstream. This is beautiful, but there may be difficulties here - ideas are blurring. But we live in a very interesting time.
YOU SHOULD BE, MANY TRAVEL AND ACQUAINT WITH SEX EXPERTS FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES. DO YOU SEE A MENTAL DIFFERENCE, A DIFFERENCE IN RELATION TO SEXUALITY?
Views on sex are complex and ambiguous. It seems that in the UK people are freer in matters of sexuality, but at times it becomes clear that the movement towards progress is not so simple: some rights and victories have been achieved, but they can also be easily taken away. It seems that in the US there are no restrictions, but in fact this is the case only in individual states. And we still live in a world where there is no comprehensive, complete and accessible sex education. Children know little about sexual health and their sexuality. We still have a lot of work.
YOU HAVE MET WITH RUSSIAN JOURNALISTS, BLOGGERS AND ACTIVISTS, MAKING UP SEX QUESTIONS. HOW, AT YOUR VIEW, IS THERE A SITUATION IN RUSSIA?
This is not my first trip to Russia: I came here as a child in the 70s, then in the 90s - and everything was very different. In the West, there are still many stereotypes about Russia and how the state interferes in the affairs of people, about the status of women. And I am surprised that everything is not as bleak as it seems. I understand that traveling, I see far from everything, but the people with whom I happened to meet, seemed to me free from prejudice, very progressive. It seems to me that in Moscow now is a difficult but very interesting time.
IN YOUR POLL, YOUNG CHILDREN TAKE PART IN YOUNG CHILDREN THAT WERE ALSO LOOKING PORN. IN OUR SOCIETY THEME OF SEXUALITY OF ADOLESCENTS IS TABATED. WAS YOUR STUDY IN SOMETHING SOMETHING CONCERNING ADOLESCENTS WHAT HAPPENED YOU?
I was surprised at how thoughtful and serious some of the answers were. Young people thought about who they were, about sex and about their difficulties (their parents would like them to know nothing about sex, so that they have no body with its needs at all). Also from the answers it became clear how much teenagers want to know more about sex and want to talk on this topic with their parents, with adults, but they cannot - and therefore they turn to pornography. And this proves that adults should take the sexual desires and interests of adolescents seriously, that adolescents should know about sex and learn about it in a way that will benefit them. And when we tell adolescents that they should not know anything about sex, thus we also tell them about sex - we say that it is embarrassing. And then they go looking for answers in the forbidden territory.
IT IS NECESSARY TO RECOGNIZE WHAT IS PORNO PARTICIPATING IN THE FORMATION OF SEXUALITY OF ADOLESCENTS WHICH ARE ALSO OR DON'T GET ACCESS TO IT. HOW MUCH HIGHLY PORNE CANNOT INJURY THE UNCOMPANYED SPECTATOR?
That's a very difficult question. From conversations with adolescents and adults about how they first saw pornography, it became clear to me that people often experience shock, disgust, or even horror. But shock is not necessarily bad. Young people often said they wanted to be shocked, searched for porn precisely because they thought they could see something terrible - almost as if they were going to a horror movie. In addition, for them it is a rite of initiation, a sign of growing up. I think this topic should be investigated more carefully and with great care.
Any new experience can be shocking, painful and possibly traumatic, but this is not necessarily bad. Very often, people are shocked and horrified by new inventions - as people who saw the film about the arrival of the train were frightened. Are we recovering from this shocking experience? Yes, and this is part of the maturing process. I do not think that children need to be protected from everything. Probably, this is not a very good answer, but I think that the problem is much more complicated and complex.
YOU HAVE BOOKS THAT CAN REACH AND A WIDEER AUDIENCE. CAN A CRITICAL LOOK AT PORNO BE USEFUL NOT ONLY TO SCIENTISTS, BUT AND ITS FINAL CONSUMERS AND THE SPECTATORS?
Porn is a very important topic, as are the topics of sex and sexuality in general. Parents hardly accept that their children grow up. Research can give them an insight into what is happening with their children, for example, why they are interested in a certain pop star. This contributes to a wider discussion about pornography and sexuality, about women's rights - the right to self-expression and sexual freedom. I think every person has his own opinion on these issues. I really try to write not very academic, because I think that the discussion is conducted very widely and not only academicians participate in it.
DO YOU READ WHAT IS PORN, PROBABLY, THE MOST UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD?
Maybe. I do not know. Of course, the ideas of pornography are well translated, but the same thing happens in other cases related to emotions, for example, with fear and sadness. There are visual forms of humor that are understandable to everyone - for example, the image of a man who slips on a banana peel. All genres that are related to the human body, like porn, can be understood by many.
Photo:Strelka Institute / Flickr, Chris Tefme - stock.adobe.com, boas73 - stock.adobe.com, ekhphoto - stock.adobe.com